Using Your Enneagram Number To Develop Relationship Intimacy (Part II)
I had the pleasure of being interviewed by Kingsley Moyo on the podcast Relationship Factor. In part two of our discussion on the Enneagram, we talked about how you can use your knowledge of your Enneagram number and your partner’s Enneagram number to grow in your relationship.
Missed part one? Start here.
Listen to the podcast or scroll down for the transcript.
Transcript
Kingsley: You tuned in to Relationship Factor, where we talk about all things relationships for millennials. Moving you from a problem to solution, from functional to exceptional relationships. I'm your host Kingsley Moyo.
Once again, my guest is Melinda Olsen. Melinda Olsen joins me on a part two episode. Melinda is an entrepreneur and she's a licensed marriage and family therapist, owner of Inviterra Counseling, and also the co-founder of Havenly Counseling Collective.
We started off with part one of the Enneagram. What is the Enneagram? In this part two episode, Melinda walks us through what the Enneagram can do, on how it shows up in relationships in your life. She helps you understand how to develop your relationship using the Enneagram. Join me for this conversation.
The Enneagram. We've talked a little bit in part one about how these different numbers show up in relationships, and what are the personality types that exist in these relationships. Melinda, I know you use the Enneagram in your counseling practice. You've done some extensive studying in this. Last time you told me that there's actually multiple subgroups under. But let's talk about relationships. How does each number of the Enneagram in their Triads show up in the relationship?
The Gut Triad
Melinda: I always like to start with the Gut Triad. What's interesting is, and I'll speak to it very generally, there are multiple Sub-types of every number. But I do find in my practice that each number has some similarities. Each number has similarities in terms of how they show up in relationships or the sticky spots they find with their partners. So, we can start with Eight again, if that's all right.
Enneagram Type Eight
Kingsley: Alright. It seems like Eight is where we begin. So, yeah. So, that would be the Gut Triad.
Melinda: Yeah. “The Challenger”. Two of the things that I've noticed a lot with Eights is first, Eights when in autopilot, because they can be intense and excessive, they can show up really big in relationships and not really know their impact. They can actually come off as intimidating to partners.
They're very direct. They don't really shy away from conflict. It's not that they seek it out or they're bullies. It's just that they're not going to shy away from a fight. Sometimes they can unintentionally steamroll in conflict. I think probably the most common thread I see in Eights is, because Eights have a hard time owning their vulnerability or their weaknesses, it's harder for them to access those feelings of fear and pain that is so essential in communicating with your partner in the midst of conflict. So, I find that to be a common thread.
Kingsley: So, they don't do vulnerability well. It's, “No, we don’t go there.” That sometimes can be perceived as a weakness, sounds like.
Melinda: Yes. And any weakness, any perceived weakness, for an Eight is dangerous. They can see other people's vulnerability and move to protect them. They outsource their vulnerability, but it's harder for them. Good growth for an Eight is owning their own vulnerabilities and their own weaknesses.
Kingsley: So, would they be the pursuer in relationships or the withdrawer? Are they the pursuer?
Melinda: It depends. Often, yes, but it depends on who they're paired with. I've seen Eights that are withdrawers as well. But the type of withdrawal looks a little more angry.
Kingsley: So, this is more masculine energy.
Melinda: Yes.
Kingsley: This can be male or female. So, they have masculine energy. They can be overwhelming, overbearing, and I could imagine when you get into conflict with this individual, they don't back down. They're not pulling any punches. If we're going, let's go. Don't start something if you're not going to finish it.
It sounds like they may want to have the last say, not because they want to be right, but it's just their personality. They don’t know how to be vulnerable because vulnerable means that they're weak and weakness can’t be tolerated.
Melinda: Yeah, that’s about right.
Kingsley: All right. Okay.
Number Nine.
Enneagram Type Nine
Melinda: Nines I think just have a very, like we said, have a very hard time knowing themselves and knowing who they are, what they want, their opinions, and they have an even harder time expressing them. So, what you'll find with Nines is that they are going to be the ones shying away from conflict. I mean, they're “The Peacemaker”. That's their title. So, you're going to find Nines to be very placating in conflict. In relationships it's really hard for them to stand up and push back for what they want and need, and oftentimes they do not even know what they want or need and really avoid conflict with their significant other. Conflict is the last thing they would ever want to deal with.
Unfortunately, when we repress any emotion, it leaks out. So, Nine's repress anger. You'll find that they can actually be a little passive aggressive or very stubborn. They'll say yes and mean no.
Kingsley: This is the kind of person that they'll repress it, repress it, and all of a sudden, they blow up because you left the spoon on the side of the sink. And you're thinking, it's just a spoon. I left it outside of the sink. I didn't put it inside the sink. But that blows up because they had repressed a lot of the anger and the frustration, they can't contain it anymore. They blow up. Is that the kind of person we're referring to here?
Melinda: But the blow up would be very subtle. It would build for a long time. They're not the kind of people that would like start screaming at somebody. They're the kind of person who that might build for a while until they realize it's an issue. And then maybe they'll just stop doing that thing that you asked them to do altogether without consulting you. Or offshoot those feelings somewhere else, like take up some sort of negative habit. It's a lot more under wraps. They're not going to be the ones to challenge unless they've done some work in awareness so that they can know what they want, know what they need, and stand up for themselves.
Kingsley: Does that mean that this is the individual, if they say, “I'm done”, they're done because they've been processing it for a long time?
Melinda: I could see that. But it takes a very long time for a very long time for a Nine to be done.
Kingsley: Very long. Okay. So, there's a lot of patience there that comes with the Nine.
The next one will be the One. “The Perfectionist”.
Enneagram Type One
Melinda: The One can have a really hard time because their intentions are so golden, to be right and good, for the world around them to be right and good, that sometimes, I think unintentionally, they can come off as critical of their partners and in relationships. This is the kind of person who will look at a dishwasher, not everyone, but they'll look at a dishwasher and see how their partner has loaded it and there's a better way. So, I think that a lot of times Ones can take on this, and again from great intentions, and they're often right, but they're the ones who can sometimes come off as critical in their relationships and it might be harder for them to accept different ways of doing things as corrections, right?
Kingsley: Change is difficult for Ones.
Melinda: It can be and especially if somebody is wanting to do something a different way. It can be hard for a One to accept that as equally valid. Or equally right.
Kingsley: So, they've been doing something particular for a while, so now you come up with a new way. It's like, why do I have to change?
Melinda: Yeah. Maybe if you came up with a better way and you convinced them, they'd probably listen. It's more about the things around them being done well and right. And them living up to that inner critic, living up to that standard. That can be one of the things that comes up in relationships with Ones.
Kingsley: This Triad is the Gut Triad. In this Triad, who are they typically paired with? So, the Nine, who would they usually pair up with?
Melinda: Here's the thing. I have seen all combinations of numbers. I don't think that any one number is better for another number. I will say, interestingly, I see a lot of Nines and Ones together. I don't know why. It could just be who I see, but I see a lot of Nines and Ones together. However, I've seen Nines with Eights, Twos, Threes, with everybody.
Kingsley: Would it be a good conclusion to say that the Nines are likely to pursue anyone they like.
Melinda: Yeah, again, I've seen all kinds of combinations of numbers. If we're talking about pursuing and withdrawing, I do find that Ones tend to be more withdrawers again, dependent on who they're paired with. Eights tend to be more pursuers, dependent on who they're paired with. And Nines could be either. Actually, I've seen both.
Kingsley: So, any combination could work?
Melinda: Any combination could work. It really is about awareness and what I chafing points with my clients. So, I have a lot of millennial clients who are dating and looking to find partners. When we talk about being partnered with somebody, we talk about how any combination of numbers can work. The chafing points between two people, the parts between two people that rub so much that it causes friction or pain. It just shows up differently with every number. You have to kind of pick the person that you can tolerate the point at which the points at which you have friction.
The Heart Triad
Kingsley: So that's The Gut. And then the next one would be number Two, which is the emotional. Two, Three, Four, is emotional. So how do these show up in relationships?
Enneagram Type Two
Melinda: Yeah. My number. Because Twos are classically just so bad at knowing what they need, and to the point where they often don't even think that they have needs, they deal with the feeling of resentment a lot. If a Two is trying to get their partner to love them, to care for them, they're going to show up in a way that is not necessarily authentic. They're placators. They're going to be people who, this is what you want me to be, okay. This is what I sense you want me to do. I'll do that. I'll be that. I can do that.
Consequently, they tend to wear themselves out both emotionally and physically. Then the resentment starts to build. They will do things for you and try to care for you in all the ways that you didn't ask for them to care for you, and then they'll be pissed off when you don't show them the same kind of care and attention that they never asked for you to show them.
Kingsley: It sounds like a Two wants that affirmation to be recognized that they're doing things, even if they were not asked to do things, they are doing it out of love. They're doing it out of care, but they want that occasional that, you know, just show me that you appreciated it. Just show me that I did something.
Melinda: I think that could be a helpful thing for Twos. But really the thing for Twos to know is that the motivation deep down and again, this might be controversial if somebody here who's listening identifies as a Two, but really the motivation deep down and lower levels of awareness is, I'm going to do these things and I'm going to be these ways for these people so that when I really need something, they are going to do that for me without me even asking.
Or, if I ask and put myself out there, they'll have to do it because I've basically made them.
Kingsley: Definitely. So, it's like they're setting the standard in their minds and if the standard has been set and they go through a similar situation they think, okay, how come no one is doing the same things for me? How come no one is, is responding? So, they kind of derive value from doing things.
Melinda: Exactly. Doing things and being a certain way for people.
Kingsley: And it also means that twos can easily get hurt then?
Melinda: Yes. Twos are very sensitive to any whiff of rejection or break in relationship.
Kingsley: That's the Two. Then the Three?
Enneagram Type Three
Melinda: Threes desire success or to be approved of. Threes, because they are so action oriented, and they're on the feelings Triad, but they do tend to repress their feelings and basically morph themselves into whatever the outside world sees as successful. I think that they, kind of like Eights at times, have a harder time with vulnerability. Not because vulnerability is weak, but because emotions aren't aerodynamic. Threes can be a little impatient. It's hard for Threes to really even know because again, they are trying to show an image of something that will get approved of. They often also have a really hard time knowing who they are deep down and sharing that with their partner.
Kingsley: So, there may be a sense of loss of identity when they get in a relationship, or there may be individuals that mirror the person who they're with in the relationship, not that they're doing it intentionally. They’re just losing themselves and it takes a lot for them to find themselves in the relationship.
Melinda: Yeah, and that takes very intentional work. In fact, Threes will do that in relationship and they'll do that everywhere. Try to be that superman. Like that ultra productive, ultra successful superman or superwoman.
Kingsley: I’ll be whoever you want me to be.
Melinda: Yes. But, as long as it's successful and whatever they define as successful.
Kingsley: So, there's high productivity with these individuals, which means if they get into a relationship and they're allowed to shine, their relationship could actually be fruitful because of the high productivity and molding it based on that high productivity.
Melinda: It could be. Because Threes are so productive and intuitive, I find that Threes can be very helpful in relationships, as well. They're very action oriented. There are a lot of positives of Threes and relationships. I think where they struggle is workaholism and the image of something being more important than the thing itself.
Kingsley: So, it's possible that they could be in a relationship that they may not really want to be in, but because the relationship symbolizes something.
Melinda: That could be a possibility. If it looks good.
Kingsley: If it looks good. I could wear it and I could walk around with it. It'll put you in a particular status because of this relationship.
Now we have the number Four that completes this Emotional Triad. How do the four show up?
Enneagram Type Four
Melinda: Fours, “The Romantic”, the deep feelings they show up in relationship. They feel a lot of deep emotion. I really just can't describe it any better. A lot of different emotions in a day or during a short period of time. Because they have and feel so much, so deeply, sometimes I find their partners can feel a little bit of whiplash as they're trying to understand their partner's internal world. So, you know, this morning you were like this and now you've processed through that and now here you are here. I mean, they can process through emotion at an alarming speed and really do that. Like really processing things and emotion at an alarmingly high speed. It's hard for us to catch up.
Kingsley: It's good for them when they're dealing with conflict, but it's not necessarily good for the other individuals when they are with them in conflict.
Melinda: It can be a challenge. I think the other thing that can be hard for Fours is presence. Being present with the mundane, everyday things of life. Because they're artists and artistic. Being married or being in a relationship, the mundane things of life are the relationship like 90 percent of the time. So, Fours can also have a way of noticing what's missing in the present. The grass is always greener, and so it can be difficult for a Four to be content in the present, in their present relationships.
Kingsley: Could commitment be a problem with the Fours?
Melinda: Sometimes. Yes, that can be that can be difficult.
The Head Triad
Kingsley: All right. Now that is the Emotional Triad. Then we have the Intellectual Triad. The head space, my peeps with the head space. Now we're done with my peeps with the emotions.
The head space. How do the Five show up?
Enneagram Type Five
Melinda: The Five, “The Observer”, they do tend to be withdrawers in relationships. Not all the time, again, it does depend on who they're paired with. One of their biggest fears is being overwhelmed. Being in relationship especially with maybe a bigger personality or an extrovert or a very emotional person, a Five can have a hard time putting down those boundaries that protect them from being overwhelmed by another person. It can be hard for a Five to let those boundaries down, to allow somebody into those private spaces, and honestly open themselves up to the rejection that they're very sensitive of. I find some Fives might argue against this, but I am married to a Five and I can attest, because they're observers. They will observe the smallest, slightest change in their partner's presentation in conflict or in everyday life and, and they will notice it and they will take that in, and they will change themselves, like change how they interact accordingly. They're very sensitive, deeply sensitive.
Kingsley: So, detail matters. It also means, if I’m hearing correctly, even when they plan an event for their partner, the smaller things, the details of how they charm them or how they woo them, they have the precision of doing the thing right in order to make sure that their partner is attended to.
Melinda: If Fives can move from the analysis paralysis that they struggle with they can definitely think through a process or think through the way that their partner would like to be loved when they're planning something.
It's almost like they can study their partner like a subject. They can go at things with such an intellectual ferocity. They can really study their partner, their wants, needs and desires. If they can't access their own emotions because they intellectualize everything, they also struggle being present with sharing their feelings because they have a hard time even being in them and then being with their partner in their feelings, that can be a very scary thing for a Five.
Kingsley: So, if their partner doesn't know them, the way that they connect, the intimacy between the two of them cannot go significantly to its possible depth because of that not being able to go deeper in the emotions.
So, if the partner looks at them and says, “Well, they don't want to connect”, It's just going to be shallow, the intimacy that they share.
Melinda: Yeah, that can happen. It's so sad because Fives are so sensitive and deep.
Kingsley: They can go deeper, deeper than one can think.
So, then there's the Six. What is the Six like.
Enneagram Type Six
Melinda: In lower levels of awareness Sixes can show up as fairly anxious, depending on the Six. They're basically always thinking of what can happen in the future. What negative things can happen in the future? How can I stave those off? What can we do? They can often feel pessimistic to their partners. I think they'd probably say that they're realists. But they can often feel a little pessimistic, feel a little anxious. That usually tends to be what I see in my office.
They're so dedicated to their partners. They're very loyal in their relationships, which is amazing. But I think often the ways that they process things, it's almost like again, the title “Devil's Advocate”. It's like they need to process things in a manner where they're trying to find the holes in things so that they won't be surprised when something bad goes down.
They're always prepared.
Kingsley: So, their outlook on the future may not always be a positive one in the relationship because they can pick and find things that, “Well, maybe won't work. That may work, but you know what? Let's just leave one day at a time.” It's safer for them.
Melinda: Or they just make sure that they have a plan for every eventuality that may occur to make sure that should it go down, they are ready.
These are the people who you want on your side during the zombie apocalypse. Like that's who I want on my side, because they've already thought of what's going down.
Kingsley: So, you better have them on your team. So, that's the Six.
Now we're talking about the Seven. The Seven completes the Intellectual Triad, what is the Seven, how do they show up in a relationship?
Enneagram Type Seven
Melinda: They're the fun, the epicure, the adventurer, life of the party. So, I think they show up really energetic to relationships often. In lower levels of awareness, they have a hard time accessing sadness. They have a hard time accessing negative emotions. For themselves and for the person with whom they're in a relationship. So, if their partner should have a bad day and want somebody to sit with them in that, I think Sevens have a harder time doing that. They don't want to be brought down. They’re the people who might practice, and again not every Seven, but this idea of toxic positivity. This idea that every negative emotion that somebody presents I'm going to turn it into a positive or be very optimistic. That can actually feel very minimizing at times for their partners who really want their person to be present with them in their hard day or the difficult thing that's happening.
Kingsley: So, they may struggle a little bit in being emotionally present when their partner is going through a difficult time.
Melinda: Yeah, that can be hard.
Kingsley: That completes all the three Triads.
Cultivating Healthy Relationships Using the Enneagram
These numbers are really interesting because they have some depth to them that if you really understand them, you can actually have some self-awareness that's woke. How do you actually cultivate a healthy relationship using your number? What are some of the things that you need to pay attention to when you know your number, your partner knows your number, how do you actually use this to actually cultivate a good relationship?
Melinda: As with anything, the Enneagram always starts with awareness and I'm probably a broken record when I say that. But when you know your number you become more aware of the core ways that that shows up.
I'll use myself as an example. As a Two, as I started to work more on my issues around being constantly outside of myself, constantly abandoning myself in order to know the emotions of others and read others and stave off any kind of negative emotion or dislike towards me. When I started tuning into myself and really knowing what I need and really knowing what I feel. Of course, that's a journey. I am better able to show up in my relationship with my husband because he doesn't have to guess anymore. He doesn't have to guess what I need. He doesn't have to guess how I feel. Sometimes he would ask me, how are you feeling? And I would say, and I still do, “I don't know, what are you needing? I don't know.” But because I know that about myself and I know how that shows up, and I'm working on it, it makes our relationship a lot better when I can take care of myself and ask for what I'm needing instead of building up this resentment of, “Oh, he didn't give me what I need, but think of all the things I did for you.”
When we start to become aware of the ways that our number shows up negatively, the ways that it impacts our partner when we start to become aware of that, and then we start to work this system into growth for what we're truly needing. As a Two I don't need to be told I'm lovable. I just need to know myself that I am loved. That I am lovable. When we start to do that. It's amazing.
Kingsley: It's interesting that you mentioned that. Another side of me is thinking if this is my personality as a Two, Three or Five or Seven, if this is my personality, sometimes we tend to fall into the trap of saying something is wrong with me because we want to fit in and be like the other numbers.
So, maybe I'm hanging out with Nine. Because a Nine tends to be the one that's overbearing and shows up in strong ways. And Nine says, “What's wrong with you? You’re just so needy.” So, the other person may tend to think that something is wrong with me, but if you begin to understand what your number is, there's nothing wrong with you. There's just who you are and just who they are. We just need to learn how to coexist.
Melinda: Yes. I think you were talking about the Eight, the one that shows up like really challenging. But I think that you're absolutely correct. I think that when we are able to really tap in and understand our partner from that lens and know it isn't about somebody being wrong and somebody else being right. If we show up differently or our personalities are different, right? Like I know a ton of Fours, like I'm surrounded by Fours. At one point I was like, wow, there must be something wrong with me. All of these people are showing up. They all know their feelings and emotions. They're so deep. I need to be more like that. When I started to realize it's not about me being wrong and them being right, it's about all of us being on a very different journey toward what we need and who we are in our own respective growth. My journey isn't theirs and their journey isn't mine. When I understood that and understood more about Fours and myself, it's so much easier to coexist in these relationships. Because wow, their journey is very different. It’s not the same and it doesn't have to be.
Kingsley: With the inception of these personality types is influenced by the family of origin. Does it necessarily mean that a family can shape a person's personality type, the Enneagram number? So, I've got two kids, they're young. Is there a possibility that the way we do things, with my wife, would shape what Enneagram number they would be? Or is that something that they're generally born with.
Melinda: So, I think that this is probably open for debate and discussion amongst Enneagram scholars. I once heard Beatrice Chestnut talk about how she believes, she's also a psychotherapist in addition to an amazing Enneagram expert, she believes that Enneagram number Core Type is nature. We're born with it. We're all born with a particular sensitivity that corresponds with our number, our Core Type and because parents, nurture, can't show up in the way that child needs perfectly for that sensitivity, then it kind of kicks off the development of the number or the personality pattern that we take on in order to navigate and survive and get what we think we're needing.
Kingsley: Since I'm born with it, it's at the core of who I am. Growing up in a particular family, you know how sometimes parents well-meaning or abusive parents may want to change a person's Type. How a child is like, don't cry, toxic masculinity, man up, and yet that is their personality type. Maybe their personality type is infused with a lot of feminine characteristics. And if they get told, don't do that, don't do that, can it cause somebody to lose complete identity of their Enneagram and get confused? Meaning that when they go into relationships, they're always confused as to who they are until they really get an opportunity, maybe therapy is where they would end up having to go.
Melinda: Actually, what I find is that because Core Type or like Enneagram Type, because it's a survival pattern, it often can be further developed out of those situations you're discussing. Like trauma or well-meaning parents. So, usually when we're born, I think we're kind of born with this core essence, and then as we interact with parents that personality type starts to take over. That pattern of being starts to take over so that we can survive in the families that we're in. That looks different again for every person. Then later on in life, yes, like therapy and work is the thing that kind of helps you to grow out of that autopilot personality and back to kind of that essence.
An example of this, my husband, the stoic, the Five, as a child was incredibly sensitive. He had wonderful, very well-meaning parents. I think I probably agree with Beatrice that every child is born with a particular sensitivity. You need perfect parents for that stage in life and nobody has perfect parents.
He was incredibly sensitive and an incredibly deep feeler and very emotive. As he grew up, you could see the Five personality start to develop. So, he started to realize that, and again his family's amazing, but because he's a person in a human family he started to develop some of those Five personality traits to help him kind of get through in the world. Very different from who he was when he was a kid. But again, those Core Types kind of help us to survive and then hurt us later in relationships. And that's kind of what we need to navigate.
Kingsley: So, if you're single and you're looking to get into a relationship, a part of the inner work of really getting to know yourself and who you are, maybe understanding what is your integral number and then beginning to read a little bit about who you are like. And I'm pretty sure as you're reading it, you'd be like, oh, that's me. And that's so me. Oh, that's why I'm like that. And maybe something would click, and you say, hey, you know, there's nothing wrong with me. That's what I needed. That guy or girl wasn't attending to who I am. That's why maybe the relationship didn't work out.
Maybe you're already married. You're in that relationship. Maybe it's time for you to sit down and look at your Enneagram numbers. Like, oh, that's why you do what you do. It can be a love bonding, intimacy deepening experience for a couple when they go through this.
Melinda: Absolutely. I use this with every couple that I see in my therapy room. I think it's something that can really help foster empathy for the other person. Knowing Enneagram Type. I think it's one of the best tools that I have in couple’s therapy.
Kingsley: So, this is really a lot of information. I mean, you've studied this stuff for a long time, and you've been at it for a while. I know we can go on and on and on with this conversation. Where can we find more information about this? Where can we find you? Where can we find more information? What are you up to?
Melinda: Yeah, I’m almost done writing a series of blogs about Enneagram Types. So, if you go to my website and click on the blog link, you'll find descriptions written the person who is that number. So, a Three wrote the Three, a Two, me, wrote the Two, and you'll get a little taste of what it is to be that Type and that might help you know, know a little bit more about the Enneagram.
Kingsley: Thank you so much for tuning in. And as always, if you want to find more information about Melinda you can go follow her on Instagram and if you are local in California, just go ahead and book an appointment.
Just go see her. It's way better that way.
Melinda: I'd love it. You help finding your number? I'd love it.
Enneagram Type Blogs
Are you Interested in learning your enneagram & growing through enneagram counseling?
Hi, I’m Melinda
I’m a therapist who uses the Enneagram and Brainspotting to help 20 & 30-somethings understand and change unhelpful patterns, love themselves, and navigate all the big transitions and emotions that come with where they are in life.
What my clients often look like:
1) Empaths and “HSPs” who feel deeply and are afraid that something is “wrong” with them or have been told that they are too “sensitive”
2) Helpers or “over-givers” who want healthier relationships with themselves and others
3) Enneagram enthusiasts who want to grow
4) Premarital and young couples wanting to start their marriage off on the right foot